Are you close to Victoria, BC? . Full floorstander, as opposed to the Retro 15, which sits on a compact 7 stand. His other research interests include epic poetry, where he has published a solution to the contradiction between Homeric fate and free will by drawing attention to the peculiar mechanics of chess endgames. "The original Shearwater was an extrapolation of the Kestrel in a slightly larger cabinet," McGinty recalls, "based on two premium drivers, which met the demand for more revealing performance with tighter, deeper bass, better midrange resolution, more natural-sounding treble, and enhanced dynamics across the boardall based on our philosophy of extreme simplicity and time-coherence.". "Transient perfect". Gotta look(& listen) at the whole package, cause that's what you're ultimately hearing. Onwards! (20 The Radian 5215s combine two great technologies. THE WORLD OF SPEAKERS IS DIVIDED INTO JUST TWO CLASSES: TIME COHERENT SPEAKERS Thanks Matt. Testing Loudspeakers: Which Measurements Matter, Part 2 - Since 1970 "We terminate a shortened transmission line in a low-Q vented alignment that makes for a slightly more benign impedance," explained McGinty. Well, I'm going to take one last technical stab at this. Interestingly, the Dunlavy's seem to have overcome a bit of this vertical sweet spot compromise. If a manufacturer achieves time/phase coherence but botches the crossover or driver integration, cabinet, etc. Monster Powerline 3 M1 Time Coherent Precision Speaker 30 - Reverb Great discussion but I wanted to help clear up one small but important misunderstanding. Nice setup! Horns are efficient. They are a great late night speaker. With the Coherent speakers, the treble is crisp. Hope to see all my friends there. Its a drop-dead gorgeous horn-loaded and hand-made speaker by Frank Fazzalari, founder of Coherent Audio, a small Canadian speaker manufacturer operating out of Stoney Creek, Ontario. Opinions? I think of these speakers as a piece of fine furniture that happens to convert electrical into sound energy. The workmanship of his speakers is very fine with a natural presentation, devoid of high gloss. Stunning sound. They are time-aligned. In any case, the speed of sound will be constant for all frequencies at any given condition of the air at the time. Sounds like you want some Unity's, Terry. On the rear of the cabinet there are two ports. Time and phase alignment are necessary to stable, accurate imaging performance .. Heres a midrange designed driver that minimizes reflections from the backside of the cone. This may seem obvious once Im a very satisfied customer. Almost. Front instead of dual rear ports. This is a review of the Retro 15 Neo Be speaker. Also Frank wasnt sure what shipping would be to my location. So low bass must be one of the tradeoffs of a horn design. Will the Coherent speakers sound right with these type amps ? ear to the issue of correct timing in our stereo systems. Likewise, That is why I said that the baffle slope doesn't mean a lot, relatively speaking. The improvement that I have heard with phase and time coherent speakers is subtle and may not be immediately attributed to the design. Source - The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, sixth edition, page 113. Also, there is the phase issue which can undue the alignment regardless of the physical alignment of the drivers. The definitions use freq. The problem with this system is during musicaldynamics the cone will slightly distortion and in turn distorting the wave guide. greenmountainaudio.com will be published in the next few weeks. I do remember that I loved the sound of these beautiful art-pieces and that the powered DSP bass was module was a great idea. A year later, his theory of tragedy was published by Friesen Press. I've owned a couple of Thiel models and have to say that, to my ears, time coherence makes music palpably real. It might sound splendid in the shop, but how will it couple with your room? I also noticed he has followed the trend toward more vibration isolation in the footers he is now using. Discuss pros and cons. Now your circuit is interesting, but second order and therefore not time coherent. I didn't get it at first, other than noting that instead of the minutes being marked off at 12 five-minute intervals, Jim's clock had 24 markings. But the truth is, that the acoustic centers of the drivers change with frequency and about the best that's possible is to insure that they're aligned at the crossover frequency. revealing nothing at all about time domain fidelity. Time and Phase Coherent Speakers - Audio & Video Forums In a way, Im glad he didnt accept my offer. You are using an out of date browser. Ozfly, at the risk of appearing petty, Joseph still couldn't. You are using an out of date browser. With the rare exception of single driver speakers, the only way to achieve time Sonically Superior. Any thoughts on those or others be appreciated. On another audio board, these never exist because once a thread has been archived after a year or so, they are closed. A simulation with actual drivers and how to design a 1st order/time phase coherent speaker. Time and Phase Coherent Loudspeakers - eCoustics - Hi-Fi, Home Theater electronic music reproduction is a three dimensional problem: the domains of which are It also features what Meadowlark calls "double decoupling," a 1"-thick inner sub-baffle braces the main baffle from behind. "Meanwhile, the crossover through which the signal is passing to the speaker is getting jack-hammered. Though each link in the audio chain is significant in its own way, we seem to spend more time agonizing over the choice and setup of loudspeakers than any other component. Pleasurable and forgiving or resolved and revealing? Coherent's Model 8 is an honest, real-world speaker, for your real life. So, I've done my best tomake these ideas simple, but if you get I can't help but think this design is responsible to a large degree for how the speaker sounds. They are, however, much more efficient than resistors, which dissipate the power produced by the amplifier as heat. Warning : Speakers with vertical baffles are NOT time coherent ! Although theyre slightly off the beaten path, Frank exhibits regularly and its easy to find him. velocity, the sound from the tweeter will arrive at the listener's But people like them. Because crossover circuits are hidden from view and somewhat hard to understand they are often overlooked by the press and disregarded by buyers as an issue in speaker design. The control of cabinet resonances is every bit as important to McGinty as is time coherence. The green mountain speakers look like a serious acoustics experiment, not a piece of furniture. The Platinum version can be crossed at as low as 600Hz. On a side note, Radian is the last manufacturer who still builds and assembles all their drivers in the USA. domain is rarely discussed, and why it is so important. Frank expressed surprise when I told him I was going to be using the Devialet with his speaker. Phase and Time align subs with main speakers | diyAudio the Company While both the Coherent Retro 15s and the Klipsch La Scala use horns, the sound from the Retro 15s is more refined. A designer can greatly expand each drivers usable band, perhaps increase the whole systems power handling, and minimize the overlap area between drivers. They drop off fairly sharply in the 40s and have useable bass down to the low 30s. They were professionally packaged in a box within another box. I have been reading alot about time coherence in speakers. Franks speakers are truly a hidden gem. One of the claimed benefits of electrostatic speakers is time and phase coherence across an extremely broad range and physical space. The implication of what I read is that they can be tuned to your room, is this correct? The Shearwater's cabinet is constructed from 1"-thick, high-grade MDF and a happy byproduct of McGinty's love of transmission-line woofer loading baffles is that the cabinet ends up massively braced. Hope youre hitting the audio shows, your series of speakers deserves to be heard and auditioned. Both the Cornell physics dept. Multiple-driver complexity or two-way simplicity? I don't see a web site for Green Mountain. Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen. Thanks Tim, Hi Tim, Frank loves his low powered tube amps, thats for sure. I feel that anything that helps preserve the waveform is beneficial. Traditional crossovers use resistors to match different sensitivities of low- mid, and high-frequency drivers. And are they being used correctly in the loudspeaker marketing material? Move up or down from that spot and they are no longer time aligned. They could produce subterranean bass that energizes the room. Two-way rules! Alas I dont live in a house with warehouse-like space. The EPI-100 and Dynaco A-25 loudspeakers have 1st order x-over networks . You want it all to arrive at the same time. 3. Heres a midrange designed driver that minimizes reflections from the backside of the cone. Tannoy uses the curvelinear mid-woofer cone as the HF waveguide, rather than having a separate central horn. Yay! Coherent Audio is something we've been waiting on for a very long time. I also own Coherent speakers, mine are the 10 floorstander version and I love them. The advantage of coaxial designs is that the low and high frequency drivers are time-aligned. The only way to hear natural sound is outside, listening to unamplified music. I believe that the Vandersteens and Josephs are time coherent. I feel the need to try to set the record straight regarding our designs. Tim, I live in Des Moines, not too far from KC. Where could they go in a two or three-hour time span and leave thinking"Wow! Is this time thing clearly audible . JavaScript is disabled. The 10 floorstander might even have a little bit smoother integration with the mids than the 15 in this review. Tannoy uses the curvelinear mid-woofer cone as the HF waveguide, rather than having a separate central horn. Above the woofer's crossover frequency, and below the tweeter's crossover frequency, their phase shifts gradually approach 90 degrees, again in opposite directions. The soundstage extends far beyond the edges of the left and right speakers, and the depth is awe-inspiring. Unlike the speakers by Coherent, GoldenEar, and PMC, I was not planning on buying the K2s. Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser. Time coherency is a funny thing, a lot of people go to a lot of effort to make things time coherent, but in the end, they will only be time aligned at a single spot. Coherent Audio Loudspeakers | Line Intro Since there were no local dealers, I travelled to Toronto to have a listen. Phase/Time coherent loudspeakers | General Hi-Fi Discussion Which model do you have? The world's largest high-end audio community. Steep filters even take most of the trouble out of getting a flat frequency response. This bloom masks subtle sonic cues and emphasizes others. This part will use ideal drivers. It's a focused array that is consistant from approximately 300Hz to nearly 20kHz. Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser. Most importantly, much cheaper drivers can be made to do the job. And expensive. Hi Edwin, wow you are spot on with your review.I went for speed and accuracy with the Golden Ratio cabinet shape . I'm sure that every speaker manufacturer feels "His" design is the best solution. THAT is the crux of the matter. First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions - High-End Audio Autoformers are much more expensive than resistors. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. At $80,000 it was listening only! Coherent Audio GR12 A Very Special Speaker, Coherent Audio GR15 Ultimate High Efficiency Speaker, Coherent Audio GR18 The One and Only of it's Kind, Coherent Audio Trim Ten Game changer Speaker. You are using an out of date browser. Ill give you a ring to audition the 18 subwoofers when I move into a house one day. Labor intensive but you will see the quality that will last a lifetime. ", The Shearwater uses a hybrid bass-loading system. FORMAT Purists will inevitably poo-poo adding a sub to such a brilliant time-coherent speaker, but purists be damned! Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen. Other brands that have my attention are NMST Jamaica 50 Watkins Gen 4/ and Bryson T2, for example. The cabinets had been reveneered and in great shape, but nothing like the beautiful fine furniture finish Coherent offers. The cabinet work is as gorgeous as the sound. If it doesn't leave at the right time, it sure can't get to your ears at the right time. Electrostatic speakers have a terrible frequency response in general. GR and Ref use two ceramic magnets. (Does anyone know what I'm talking about?). specifications commonly used to describe speakers dwell almost entirely upon frequency and amplitude while Rob at Q-Electronic has also heard about Coherent Audio and the Radian drivers. can see below, if the sound were (for the sake of graphic clarity) a square wave - the listener would not hear a square wave at all. About This Listing. Comparing rise times, the woofer is approximately 250s behind the tweeter. Review: The Coherent Model 8 - A Speaker For (Real) Life Are full range driver loudspeakers time/phase coherent ? You have 275+ watts with the Parasound, so they will play as loud as you want to go. And a good deal. First order usually refers to the electrical filter, not the inherent slope of the driver's response. Contact us to discuss your system needs, we look forward to meeting you >> HIGH FIDELITY Natural life-like Performance HIGH SENSITIVITY 94 dB to 102 db 2 to 300 Watts HIGH VALUE Stunning for their Price+ Being that I wanted it all, I decided to use a curved baffle to maintain Phase and Time coherency. order. Ping me if youd like to come check them out. Focal Chora 806 ($799 pr USD w/optional stands $290 USD) The Focal Chora 806 are the embodiment of upstream technology trickling downstream; few bookshelf speakers in this price range have as smooth of a treble that is also this detailed. Maybe one day down the line though. Heres a pic from a 1996 brochure showing the 3A having the minimum diffraction 4.5 midrange driver. Though the listener might hear all frequencies at the proper amplitude, the waveform is disturbed in the time domain. The software is Xsim which has enough basic stuffs for basic simulation. It works strikingly well and the speakers have an ease and enormous soundstage and imaging. Man, I'd like to see Richard Vandersteen and Joseph Audio get in the ring! "The output signal should look like the input signaland only in time-coherent speakers is that the case. My question and concern is his speakers designed for low power tube amps. I guess if you consider a slightly taller than eight foot ceiling "low" Our house is currently under construction and the ceilings will be right around 9'6". You must log in or register to reply here. Designers sharing the merits and compromises they have to deal with in a decorous forum. Of the speakers I have measured for Stereophile, only about 10models from Quad, Thiel, Dunlavy, Spica, and Vandersteenhave step responses this good. He is an award-winning classicist with a master's degree from Brown University, where he concentrated in ancient theatre. They were nothing spectacular to be honest. The speakers probably weigh close to eighty poundsone person can move them, but with difficulty. Far fewer speakers are really time-aligned than you might think. Richard Bischoff rbischoff 09-14-2002 1:57pm 1 2 3 4 Next Last They are not tuned to your room, but "focused" to your listening position via moving the mid and tweeter in the C-2 and new C-3. Whether that is because time alignment means nothign to me, or because other things about the Vandersteens were not to my liking, I can't really say. The bass from the Retro 15s and the La Scalas is more airy. Physical alignment of the driver's voice coils was thought to bring this about at one time. Horn loudspeakers are the holy grail to me. ", Supertweeter. Each has a special super tweeter providing even more spatial imaging. No speaker is perfect, as I said, and therefore is not truer unless you use a subjective analysis(as in your case---your ears.). Tested in our shop, in good working condition. As you Over the rest of the frequency spectrum that each driver is intended to cover, the phase shift caused by the reactive elements is less than 45 degrees. Think? Too bad that driver is only like 84 or 85dB sensitivity. But its different bass than the bass from the latest ported speaker designs with multiple low-end drivers such as the Mirage M3 or the GoldenEar Triton References. Time Coherent Topology. to grasp, even for us in the industry. The basic Shearwater is priced at $2695/pair, the Hot Rod version sent for review costs $3195/pair. Conventional speakers that have separate woofers and tweeters mounted on a panel are not time-aligned: the different frequencies arrive at the ear fractions of a second apart, smearing the presentation. Figure 21: Example loudspeaker response with reversed tweeter polarity. Once we get enough chips we'll have them here on our site. What we are talking about is the time that elapses between the arrival of the electrical signal at the input of the driver and when the acoustical signal leaves the driver. contact us Engineering The Ardens were going for $3000. Some may like their gigantic presentation. Cant afford the 15s! With the Coherent speakers, the midrange is detailed and palpable. Don't see something you like or want to match a decor? Said shipping Nashville this week so would have idea. And Im sure it goes for six-figures. What I love about the Devialet, however, is that it is dead quiet. I love the big 15s. It is just closer to an electrical ideal. With the Magnepan speakers, the midrange is detailed and recessed. Are they better ? Then, ONLY as much crossover as needed, is applied to achieve phase and time alignment (the Global Axis Integration Network, as Albert Von Schweikert originally named it), and flat response. But, to me, theyre out of control. Reviews This happens mostly with classical. Is it not true that for a speaker to be properly "phase-aligned" by default it almost demands a 1st order crossover? What is the link to what you are reading? "Science has proven a bumble bee can't fly but it does", I didn't read every word in this thread, but it started by listing the Joseph speakers as being time and phase correct. (UREI 809A). The pair of Ardens I auditioned, for example, must have been 40+ years old. They are obtained unassembled allowing Frank to modify them for Hi Fi home use. The crossover was designed to protect the speakers, not for audiophile sound. Unlike all other speakers, the Coherent Line sounds great off-axis as well as traditional sweet spot listening. Glad you enjoyed the review Matt! It was a joy to unpack them, as much though had gone into protecting them on their journey across Canada. Vandersteen tries to get his speakers to perform in a manner that preserves this waveform and even though the phase angle does change, it is not going far in a positve or negative direction unlike some speakers. Once I was exposed to the time aligned and phase coherent systems, I will not be going back. Coherent Audio Loudspeakers This led in turn to his unshakeable conviction that using the best drivers in a robustly braced, transmission-line-loaded cabinet with a simple first-order crossover could yield accurate, detailed, nonfatiguing performance with a natural depiction of dynamics, good imaging, and articulate, well-damped bass extension. Though horns can play loud, they sound extremely pleasing at low volumes. The lot of these speakers go down to the low 40s before dropping off. musician can tell you that the 'tools of the trade' are pitch, loudness and Like many of you, Ive had subs in the past. The only variable in the speed of sound is the density of the medium(air) which will cause variations according to altitude, and humidity, or barometric pressure. Finally, from Fig. But their ability to do this comes at the expense of recreating the exciting and visceral punch of rock music. Due to the coaxial / XD crossover the two elements work as one point source. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I used to live in a New York style loft condo: the upstairs is open to the downstairs. They also have issues similiar to what was mentioned in a post above in regards to a 6db filter requiring a broader overlap of frequencies for its drivers except the electrostatic is trying to make a diaphragm work at most frequencies equally well which it won't. One thing that horns do that no other speaker does is that they sound very lifelike from the next room. That's one of their biggest advantages. woofer's acoustic center. This protects the tweeter from harmful high power that may be present at the lower frequencies, and keeps intermodulation distortion to a minimum in the tweeter. In addition, I agree with him fully that first-order crossovers are an absolute bear when it comes to frequency response and driver integration in real space. And he discarded the Radian designed crossover with an autoformer of his own devising. Designers that go to the trouble to ensure time coherency will likely have also given lots of thought to other critical aspects as well, so its really not possible to simply determine that the speakers sound good because they're time aligned, but it's also unlikely that a speaker will sound amazing if it's not. I have said in many posts that accuracy is not that big of an issue it seems. Comments appreciated . You might not like his recommendations but his science is correct. But it turns out my fears were misplaced. What's the most musical and coherent 2-way speakers ever made . There are a couple of other brands too - Thiel, for one. Its coasting along at maybe 10% of its capacity. The phase shift created by a 24 db slope would be tuff to fix. I am not about to slam on Joseph's speakers, because I think that he is correct on many points and certainly the results speak for themselves: a very clean and clear decay and very flat frequency response. Low order cross-overs, preferably of the series type, now seem to be the preferred (but not sole criteria) speaker type for Mr. DeWulf. HERE IS WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THIS A time coherent speaker is one whose acoustic output is a duplicate of its electrical input. And for those of you wondering: Why not a sealed sub? the answer is that at my old loft-style place the sub had to energize a 15,000 cubic foot space (30x20x25). I definitely hear something a little different when listening to Thiel speakers in terms of image specificity and a sense of dimension, but I don't know how much of that is due to their time/phase coherent design. Still sound great but am tired of looking at brown socks. And it digs down to 22Hz (-3dB) it ranked among the. Best Bookshelf Speakers | Buyers Guide Summer 2023 It is available through Amazon and B&N. Wilson Audio Specialties Alexia V loudspeaker, Tannoy Stirling Prestige Gold Reference loudspeaker, Triangle Antal 40th Anniversary Edition loudspeaker, Multiple Premieres at PAF from JMF Audio and Ideon Audio, JVS's Best of PAF 2023: Dutch & Dutch 8c all-in-ones, Twin Showcases from Spatial Audio Lab with Don Sachs and Lynn Olson Design, Great Sound: Popori Acoustics Electrostats from Notable Audio Products, CH Precision, Ideon, Magico, and more from Audio-Ultra, Wells Audio Performs with Honor at Pacific Audiofest, Linear Tube Audio, Daedalus, WyWires DanceTake One, HiFi Rose RS520 streaming integrated amplifier, Antipodes Oladra server/streamer/reclocker. To do so it attenuates the signal in the frequencies that are not desired. Its always been that way. Hence the listener hears something quite different from what is actually on the Beryllium dome are available for both lines. Should speakers be time and phase coherent? - TestHiFi Horns are quite different than Magnepan panels in this regard. How do they relate to each other? I've done a bit of reading on time and phase aligned speakers. Are full range driver loudspeakers time/phase coherent ? In the end, I purchased the Coherent Retro 15 Neo Be demo pair from Frank for $11,165 (CAD), shipping included. The Coherents go quite loud with as little as 2-3 watts! I've been reading about them lately at GMA's website . The Maggies are good at recreating the empty space around the instruments such as the interior space of a cathedral. Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Coherent Audio Retro 15 Neo Be Speaker Review, Risk Theatre Modern Tragedy Competition December 2018 Update, How to Set Up an International Playwriting Competition, Review of THE TWO CULTURES C. P. 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